http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/aug/1...mpicsbasketball
Full Version: Spanish Basketball Nt - Photo Controversy
Yes we are all rascist, we make our eyes slanted because we are in China and Chinese people have slanted eyes. Oh look there is a dragon, how pathetic, red card please! Please teach us oh knowledgible multicultural european and american superiors how to be politically correct. We are so backwards in our ways we just dont know how to act, our culture is inferior and we need to learn from everyone else around us how to act. We should be banned so England can finally win something.
You should add this to the rascism thread so you can bash us about this, the inquisition and our past colonial agressions.
Thank you for pointing out how ignorant we are.
My apologies to all the Chinese people on behalf of the Spanish basketball team for pointing out that Chinese people have slanted eyes while europeans have more oval shaped eyes. By pointing this difference out we have shown that we are different, thus we are rascist.
You should add this to the rascism thread so you can bash us about this, the inquisition and our past colonial agressions.
Thank you for pointing out how ignorant we are.
My apologies to all the Chinese people on behalf of the Spanish basketball team for pointing out that Chinese people have slanted eyes while europeans have more oval shaped eyes. By pointing this difference out we have shown that we are different, thus we are rascist.
From the NY times just so you know the intentions, also Spain's basketball team is sponsored by a Chinese company.
http://olympics.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/08/...rges-of-racism/
QUOTE
UPDATE (Tuesday 145pm NYC time): Pete Thamel has more from Beijing.
Roberto Hernandez, the Spanish press officer for basketball, said he was not aware of the picture when reached by telephone. When told about its contents and asked if the Spanish team had made any effort to apologize, he asked a reporter to call Li Ning, the Chinese Olympic hero from the 1984 Games and the man who floated through the air at the Bird’s Nest to light the Olympic torch at the opening ceremony. The Spanish team is sponsored by Li-Ning, the footwear company.
Here is the Li-Ning Co. Web page noting its sponsorship agreements, including that with the Spanish national basketball teams.
Li-Ning’s sponsorship with Spain basketball was noted in the U.S. press as long ago as 2004 (as in this L.A. Times article), and the deal itself was signed in 2002, as noted a couple of years ago by the English-language Beijing Review in this article.
In Spain the association with Li-Ning is hardly a secret at all. A blog for the business paper El Comercio notes the visit of Spain basketball officials and players upon their arrival in Beijing to the Li-Ning hospitality center, Spain basketball federation president Jose Luis Saez among them.
Moreover, on Aug. 6 Spain basketball and Li-Ning renewed their sponsorhip agreement through 2012 — which apparently was what the ads in Marca was referring to.
So while the gesture of the Spanish teams in the ads might seem culturally insensitive at first glance, it’s a little more complicated than that when you look deeper, given that the ad was for, and must have been approved by, a Chinese company.
The Madrid daily El Mundo asks whether the ad constitutes “Racism or a Casual Wink?,” noting the posts in the Guardian and on this blog.
The El Mundo story gives some background for the ad, for the courier company Seur:
The photograph, widely disseminated now by the press, was made during the preparation campaign for the Olympic Games in Beijing. …
Jose Manuel Calderon, an icon of the national team, explains in his blog at elmundo.es that it was a wink of the sponsor, something they thought appropriate and affectionate. He is blunt: “Whoever wants to interpret something different, totally confused.”
“It turns out that in the photo shoot for the submission of our team, one of our sponsors asked us to make, as a ‘wink’ to our participation in Beijing, an expression of Eastern eyes. We felt it was something appropriate and that it would always be interpreted as an affectionate gesture,” says Calderon. “However, some European media have not looked on it well,” laments the linchpin of the national team.
Calderon denies any racist tinge in the gesture and expressed his “great respect for the East and its people.” The Extremaduran highlighted his great personal relationship with several Chinese friends by his team in the NBA, Toronto Raptors, and recalled that the sports brand Li Ning China outfits the Spanish team as one of its sponsors.
Roberto Hernandez, the Spanish press officer for basketball, said he was not aware of the picture when reached by telephone. When told about its contents and asked if the Spanish team had made any effort to apologize, he asked a reporter to call Li Ning, the Chinese Olympic hero from the 1984 Games and the man who floated through the air at the Bird’s Nest to light the Olympic torch at the opening ceremony. The Spanish team is sponsored by Li-Ning, the footwear company.
Here is the Li-Ning Co. Web page noting its sponsorship agreements, including that with the Spanish national basketball teams.
Li-Ning’s sponsorship with Spain basketball was noted in the U.S. press as long ago as 2004 (as in this L.A. Times article), and the deal itself was signed in 2002, as noted a couple of years ago by the English-language Beijing Review in this article.
In Spain the association with Li-Ning is hardly a secret at all. A blog for the business paper El Comercio notes the visit of Spain basketball officials and players upon their arrival in Beijing to the Li-Ning hospitality center, Spain basketball federation president Jose Luis Saez among them.
Moreover, on Aug. 6 Spain basketball and Li-Ning renewed their sponsorhip agreement through 2012 — which apparently was what the ads in Marca was referring to.
So while the gesture of the Spanish teams in the ads might seem culturally insensitive at first glance, it’s a little more complicated than that when you look deeper, given that the ad was for, and must have been approved by, a Chinese company.
The Madrid daily El Mundo asks whether the ad constitutes “Racism or a Casual Wink?,” noting the posts in the Guardian and on this blog.
The El Mundo story gives some background for the ad, for the courier company Seur:
The photograph, widely disseminated now by the press, was made during the preparation campaign for the Olympic Games in Beijing. …
Jose Manuel Calderon, an icon of the national team, explains in his blog at elmundo.es that it was a wink of the sponsor, something they thought appropriate and affectionate. He is blunt: “Whoever wants to interpret something different, totally confused.”
“It turns out that in the photo shoot for the submission of our team, one of our sponsors asked us to make, as a ‘wink’ to our participation in Beijing, an expression of Eastern eyes. We felt it was something appropriate and that it would always be interpreted as an affectionate gesture,” says Calderon. “However, some European media have not looked on it well,” laments the linchpin of the national team.
Calderon denies any racist tinge in the gesture and expressed his “great respect for the East and its people.” The Extremaduran highlighted his great personal relationship with several Chinese friends by his team in the NBA, Toronto Raptors, and recalled that the sports brand Li Ning China outfits the Spanish team as one of its sponsors.
http://olympics.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/08/...rges-of-racism/
Well, gee, their team sponsor is a Chinese company so pulling the 'slanty eye' gag makes it alright and hence they're not racist...If for the World Cup, the Spanish NT got collagen injections and tried to give the look of Africans would that be ok too?...When Lewis Hamilton strolls into Madrid or anywhere else in Spain, should he expect the racist nonsense he faced last time and chalk it up to humour?...How about Eto'O when he hears Monkey chants?...Don't spin, it's a well known truth that Spain suffers from racism.
You read what Jason Kidd said about the team photo?...He said they'd be out of the Olympics and lucky to return back to the US.
Prejudice is prejudice
You read what Jason Kidd said about the team photo?...He said they'd be out of the Olympics and lucky to return back to the US.
Prejudice is prejudice
With all due respect, and I really don't mean any disrespect at all, I think you are looking too much into this.
prej·u·dice
Function: noun
1: injury or damage resulting from some judgment or action of another in disregard of one's rights; especially : detriment to one's legal rights or claims
2 a (1): preconceived judgment or opinion (2): an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge b: an instance of such judgment or opinion c: an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics
I ask you to read that definition and then look at this picture. How is this damaging or disregarding the Chinese rights? Is this really a preconceived judgment or opinion, is it not common knowledge that many chinese people have slanted eyes? If you were to describe a chinese person, from eastern China, would you not at least think of making their eyes slanted? Is this an irrational attitude towards their characteristics? Is this an act of hostility?
It was an add made in preparation for the Olympics in Beijing. You have to understand that pointing out the fact that many chinese people have slanted eyes does not automatically mean that these players think less of them - its biological difference, not prejudice or anything of that matter. Do you think that if the Chinese basketball team had posed for a picutre before a match in Madrid making oval eyes that anyone would be upset. No, of course not.
Surely you don't think the players meant any harm in this at all, as shown by Calderon's words.
Of course Jason Kidd will say that, he lives in America. I live in America too, and you know what I have been taught living in America, that white protestant culture is the norm, anything deviating from that is bad, thus by pointing out that there are differences you are engaging in a rascist act. Thus when I say that many Chinese people have slanted eyes, as the Spanish basketball team did here, I would be charged with making a rascist statement. I disagree, in fact I think it limits freedom of expression and it is definately a double standard, but its what I'm stuck with so I conform to it.
Please don't get so riled up because the English press is contantly looking for ways to make the Spanish as a whole look like horrible people, and judging by the response in the NY Times they are apparently succeeding.
prej·u·dice
Function: noun
1: injury or damage resulting from some judgment or action of another in disregard of one's rights; especially : detriment to one's legal rights or claims
2 a (1): preconceived judgment or opinion (2): an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge b: an instance of such judgment or opinion c: an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics
I ask you to read that definition and then look at this picture. How is this damaging or disregarding the Chinese rights? Is this really a preconceived judgment or opinion, is it not common knowledge that many chinese people have slanted eyes? If you were to describe a chinese person, from eastern China, would you not at least think of making their eyes slanted? Is this an irrational attitude towards their characteristics? Is this an act of hostility?
It was an add made in preparation for the Olympics in Beijing. You have to understand that pointing out the fact that many chinese people have slanted eyes does not automatically mean that these players think less of them - its biological difference, not prejudice or anything of that matter. Do you think that if the Chinese basketball team had posed for a picutre before a match in Madrid making oval eyes that anyone would be upset. No, of course not.
Surely you don't think the players meant any harm in this at all, as shown by Calderon's words.
Of course Jason Kidd will say that, he lives in America. I live in America too, and you know what I have been taught living in America, that white protestant culture is the norm, anything deviating from that is bad, thus by pointing out that there are differences you are engaging in a rascist act. Thus when I say that many Chinese people have slanted eyes, as the Spanish basketball team did here, I would be charged with making a rascist statement. I disagree, in fact I think it limits freedom of expression and it is definately a double standard, but its what I'm stuck with so I conform to it.
Please don't get so riled up because the English press is contantly looking for ways to make the Spanish as a whole look like horrible people, and judging by the response in the NY Times they are apparently succeeding.
QUOTE(Andres. @ Aug 13 2008, 02:10 PM) 
With all due respect, and I really don't mean any disrespect at all, I think you are looking too much into this.
prej·u·dice
Function: noun
1: injury or damage resulting from some judgment or action of another in disregard of one's rights; especially : detriment to one's legal rights or claims
2 a (1): preconceived judgment or opinion (2): an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge b: an instance of such judgment or opinion c: an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics
I ask you to read that definition and then look at this picture. How is this damaging or disregarding the Chinese rights? Is this really a preconceived judgment or opinion, is it not common knowledge that many chinese people have slanted eyes? If you were to describe a chinese person, from eastern China, would you not at least think of making their eyes slanted? Is this an irrational attitude towards their characteristics? Is this an act of hostility?
It was an add made in preparation for the Olympics in Beijing. You have to understand that pointing out the fact that many chinese people have slanted eyes does not automatically mean that these players think less of them - its biological difference, not prejudice or anything of that matter. Do you think that if the Chinese basketball team had posed for a picutre before a match in Madrid making oval eyes that anyone would be upset. No, of course not.
Surely you don't think the players meant any harm in this at all, as shown by Calderon's words.
Of course Jason Kidd will say that, he lives in America. I live in America too, and you know what I have been taught living in America, that white protestant culture is the norm, anything deviating from that is bad, thus by pointing out that there are differences you are engaging in a rascist act. Thus when I say that many Chinese people have slanted eyes, as the Spanish basketball team did here, I would be charged with making a rascist statement. I disagree, in fact I think it limits freedom of expression and it is definately a double standard, but its what I'm stuck with so I conform to it.
Please don't get so riled up because the English press is contantly looking for ways to make the Spanish as a whole look like horrible people, and judging by the response in the NY Times they are apparently succeeding.
prej·u·dice
Function: noun
1: injury or damage resulting from some judgment or action of another in disregard of one's rights; especially : detriment to one's legal rights or claims
2 a (1): preconceived judgment or opinion (2): an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge b: an instance of such judgment or opinion c: an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics
I ask you to read that definition and then look at this picture. How is this damaging or disregarding the Chinese rights? Is this really a preconceived judgment or opinion, is it not common knowledge that many chinese people have slanted eyes? If you were to describe a chinese person, from eastern China, would you not at least think of making their eyes slanted? Is this an irrational attitude towards their characteristics? Is this an act of hostility?
It was an add made in preparation for the Olympics in Beijing. You have to understand that pointing out the fact that many chinese people have slanted eyes does not automatically mean that these players think less of them - its biological difference, not prejudice or anything of that matter. Do you think that if the Chinese basketball team had posed for a picutre before a match in Madrid making oval eyes that anyone would be upset. No, of course not.
Surely you don't think the players meant any harm in this at all, as shown by Calderon's words.
Of course Jason Kidd will say that, he lives in America. I live in America too, and you know what I have been taught living in America, that white protestant culture is the norm, anything deviating from that is bad, thus by pointing out that there are differences you are engaging in a rascist act. Thus when I say that many Chinese people have slanted eyes, as the Spanish basketball team did here, I would be charged with making a rascist statement. I disagree, in fact I think it limits freedom of expression and it is definately a double standard, but its what I'm stuck with so I conform to it.
Please don't get so riled up because the English press is contantly looking for ways to make the Spanish as a whole look like horrible people, and judging by the response in the NY Times they are apparently succeeding.
I don't read the NY Times, too biased against the Middle East for my taste.
And I love Spain but I won't for a second try to sugarcoat a pervasive problem that even friends in Madrid will readily admit...Racism persists in Spain, a reputation like that in Europe is not fiction when it's held by so many.
Moreover, slanty eyed impressions of the Chinese or any other southeastern Asian is not racist/prejudice?...Like I said, had they painted themselves up as Sambo or made their lips look bigger would they be prejudice/racist then?...If they put on gag noses to make them look bigger before they went to play the Israeli NT, would it be racist/prejudice?...You're making excuses for a problem rather than admitting it's wrong and the ONLY people defending/denying it are the Spaniards...Should tell you something right there
QUOTE(Andres. @ Aug 13 2008, 05:10 PM)
prej·u·dice
Function: noun
1: injury or damage resulting from some judgment or action of another in disregard of one's rights; especially : detriment to one's legal rights or claims
2 a (1): preconceived judgment or opinion (2): an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge b: an instance of such judgment or opinion c: an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics
Function: noun
1: injury or damage resulting from some judgment or action of another in disregard of one's rights; especially : detriment to one's legal rights or claims
2 a (1): preconceived judgment or opinion (2): an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge b: an instance of such judgment or opinion c: an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics
How does that ad not correspond to that last definition?
I don't think the ad is particularly racist, but the excuses being put forth in its defense are quite ridiculous. There are so many other ways that the Spanish could have shown supposed "excitement and respect" for the games in China other than taking a photograph like that.
And as FCBarca has already pointed out, Spain has quite a history of racism.
Look man you need to lighten up a bit. Its a silly photo, done by naive players who were not expecting to be misinterpreted. Please man stop making yourself feel good by pointing your moral finger at someone else, it does not do anyone good.
Of course racism exists in Spain, are you surprised by this? I am not denying that there are people in Spain, like in England, or this Chinese neighborhood where I reside in the United States or anywhere in the world, that are racist - what else do you want me to say. I don't agree with them, neither do most spaniards and the media has pointed at distasteful and racist behavior and denounced it, thats all you can do. Why do you feel the need to condemn Spaniards, this is not constructive, its just ugly and hipocritical.
I do not have to apologize for this picture because it is not racist, in fact the only way you can find this racist is because you are looking at this through a biased lense. Why is it racist to make slanted eyes, in fact by insisting that this is racist you are suggesting that it is undesirable to have slanted eyes. To do as these basketball players did here is seen as a racist gesture in the United States, where I presume you live, because there has been a history of racial abuse in this country directed at Asian using this gesture accompanied by a silly accent and whatnot. Have you seen the Simpsons, have you seen any American television, have you not noticed that they stereotype East Asians using this ALL THE TIME here? Spain does not have this history though, but by boldly claiming this is racist and the Spaniards should have known that this is now frowned upon in a different culture (i.e. America) your subjecting Spaniards to the same preconditions and racial tensions that I have to suffer through here in America and that is not fair to Gasol & co. Have you seen the Spanish table tennis team? Two of these players were born in China, if we were full of brazen racists like you are suggesting do you think they would be allowed to represent Spain, of course not.
These examples you've suggested are awful and unnecessary because the Spanish Basketball team hasn't done so. The fact of the matter is if they had Chinese robes or hats I'm sure they would have put them on instead, but they didn't. The sponsor asked them to make a wink suggesting that they were going to play in China and this is what they came up with, because when they think of Chinese people they think of a different contortion of the eyes. They did this as a sign of affection as stated by the players - Spaniards have a sense of humor which is vastly different from that of England or the US. This picture was taken for a spanish audience, when I think of the physical characteristics of a Chinese person I think of an individual with slanted eyes. I suppose this may be considered ignorant (even if its not inaccurate), but forgive us of our ignorance and understand that there was no malicious intent here.
If this is not enough have you even stopped to look if the Chinese government or the Chinese Basketball organization have complained about this ad? I'll answer this for you, no they haven't. Are you really surprised that the first media organizations to consider this racist were the English, who have been doing citing every single racial incident in Spain for years. I'm not so sure why they are adamant about this issue in Spain in particular. I'm not familiar with England, but to hear the American media complain about this with all the racist shit that goes on here on a daily basis is really really hipocritical and it upsets me. As the saying goes, fix up your house before you look for problems in mines.
Look I'm Spanish and I have the right to defend myself and my country from unwarranted attacks and labeling. Just to prove thats I'm not the only person who doesn't agree with the racist accusations I'll let Mark Heisler from the LA Times explain this for you:
In closing I will pose this question to you: What kind of world are we living in where we cant even respectfully poke fun at the little physical and cultural differences between us?
I mean no disrespect when I say that I do not see how that photo was either irrational nor hostile to Chinese people.
Of course racism exists in Spain, are you surprised by this? I am not denying that there are people in Spain, like in England, or this Chinese neighborhood where I reside in the United States or anywhere in the world, that are racist - what else do you want me to say. I don't agree with them, neither do most spaniards and the media has pointed at distasteful and racist behavior and denounced it, thats all you can do. Why do you feel the need to condemn Spaniards, this is not constructive, its just ugly and hipocritical.
I do not have to apologize for this picture because it is not racist, in fact the only way you can find this racist is because you are looking at this through a biased lense. Why is it racist to make slanted eyes, in fact by insisting that this is racist you are suggesting that it is undesirable to have slanted eyes. To do as these basketball players did here is seen as a racist gesture in the United States, where I presume you live, because there has been a history of racial abuse in this country directed at Asian using this gesture accompanied by a silly accent and whatnot. Have you seen the Simpsons, have you seen any American television, have you not noticed that they stereotype East Asians using this ALL THE TIME here? Spain does not have this history though, but by boldly claiming this is racist and the Spaniards should have known that this is now frowned upon in a different culture (i.e. America) your subjecting Spaniards to the same preconditions and racial tensions that I have to suffer through here in America and that is not fair to Gasol & co. Have you seen the Spanish table tennis team? Two of these players were born in China, if we were full of brazen racists like you are suggesting do you think they would be allowed to represent Spain, of course not.
These examples you've suggested are awful and unnecessary because the Spanish Basketball team hasn't done so. The fact of the matter is if they had Chinese robes or hats I'm sure they would have put them on instead, but they didn't. The sponsor asked them to make a wink suggesting that they were going to play in China and this is what they came up with, because when they think of Chinese people they think of a different contortion of the eyes. They did this as a sign of affection as stated by the players - Spaniards have a sense of humor which is vastly different from that of England or the US. This picture was taken for a spanish audience, when I think of the physical characteristics of a Chinese person I think of an individual with slanted eyes. I suppose this may be considered ignorant (even if its not inaccurate), but forgive us of our ignorance and understand that there was no malicious intent here.
If this is not enough have you even stopped to look if the Chinese government or the Chinese Basketball organization have complained about this ad? I'll answer this for you, no they haven't. Are you really surprised that the first media organizations to consider this racist were the English, who have been doing citing every single racial incident in Spain for years. I'm not so sure why they are adamant about this issue in Spain in particular. I'm not familiar with England, but to hear the American media complain about this with all the racist shit that goes on here on a daily basis is really really hipocritical and it upsets me. As the saying goes, fix up your house before you look for problems in mines.
Look I'm Spanish and I have the right to defend myself and my country from unwarranted attacks and labeling. Just to prove thats I'm not the only person who doesn't agree with the racist accusations I'll let Mark Heisler from the LA Times explain this for you:
QUOTE
MARK HEISLER ON OLYMPIC BASKETBALL
Picture puts Spain's defense to the test
Basketball team photo, which was shot for newspaper ads, doesn't go over well.
Mark Heisler
August 14, 2008
BEIJING -- Love them or hate them, nothing can stop the Foreign Devils in the basketball competition, at least not to this point, going into Saturday's big game with the U.S.
Yes, in a refreshing change for the Americans -- not to mention Chris Kaman, their expatriate playing for Germany -- they aren't the Foreign Devils here.
That's Spain, courtesy of its now famous team photo with players pulling back the corners of their eyes to look Asian, in a joke that didn't go over so well in Asia.
Bad taste notwithstanding, it didn't make the Spaniards racists, but this is where the Olympics' worldwide media corps meets the Internet Age with a result that can be summed up in two words: feeding frenzy.
By Tuesday's dramatic game against China, when Spain came from 14 points behind in the fourth quarter to win in overtime, a full house in Wukesong Arena booed every Spanish possession.
Worse, the photo was added to a list of more serious incidents involving Spain: Soccer Coach Luis Aragones' racial remark at France's Thierry Henry; crowds taunting English players in Madrid's Santiago Bernabeu Stadium and Formula One driver Lewis Hamilton in a race in Barcelona. Meanwhile, the Spanish basketball players were apologizing for all they were worth. Pau Gasol said it was a joke and was "sorry if anybody thought or took it the wrong way."
That was "not good enough" for The Times’ Bill Plaschke, from "someone who makes millions of dollars in Los Angeles, in a country and city with a strong Asian American influence."
Personally, I thought it was fine since, however ham-handed the photo was, it was actually intended as a salute.
The Spanish team is sponsored by the Chinese sportswear company Li-Ning. The idea for the photo with the players gathered around a drawing of a Chinese dragon came from Seur, the Spanish courier company, which shot the photo for newspaper ads.
"As for the reaction here, it's always pretty much the same in these cases," says Jorge Sierra, the Spanish editor of the international website Hoopshype.com.
"People get defensive and don't understand what the big fuss is all about, which I can understand in this case because there was no ill will intended.
"That wasn't the case with the incidents at the Bernabeu game and the F1 circuit, which were flat-out embarrassing. . . .
"People here don't appreciate being singled out as especially racist. I don't have any numbers to support it, but I would bet the farm that proportionally there are more interracial marriages and couples with men and women from different countries here than in most nations around Spain. Yes, we do have a problem with racism -- but just like everybody else."
There is also a question of style here as opposed to substance.
The "politically correct" standard our papers use (and are often criticized for) started in the U.S., and is working its way, however unevenly, through the rest of the world, like blue jeans and rock 'n' roll.
My first experience with a Spanish team came at a qualifying tournament in France in 1984 where Coach Antonio Diaz-Miguel congratulated the English team -- largely made up of African American U.S. college players -- on their "beautiful suntans."
Not that we should get too carried away with our own exquisite "sensitivity."
There is a tendency to regard one's own problems as something we're working on and those of others as problems, enabling us to chastise the Chinese on human rights while Guantanamo Bay remains an issue.
For Western visitors, it's a trip to read the state-owned China Daily, which maintains the official line but is so hip, down to the front-page Hooters ad with the color photo of four Hooters girls (same uniform as in the U.S.).
In any case, the Spaniards weren't booed in Thursday's 72-59 win over Germany that made them 3-0, going into the U.S. game. It's just basketball again, all Spain hopes.
http://www.latimes.com/sports/olympics/la-...0,5215510.story
Picture puts Spain's defense to the test
Basketball team photo, which was shot for newspaper ads, doesn't go over well.
Mark Heisler
August 14, 2008
BEIJING -- Love them or hate them, nothing can stop the Foreign Devils in the basketball competition, at least not to this point, going into Saturday's big game with the U.S.
Yes, in a refreshing change for the Americans -- not to mention Chris Kaman, their expatriate playing for Germany -- they aren't the Foreign Devils here.
That's Spain, courtesy of its now famous team photo with players pulling back the corners of their eyes to look Asian, in a joke that didn't go over so well in Asia.
Bad taste notwithstanding, it didn't make the Spaniards racists, but this is where the Olympics' worldwide media corps meets the Internet Age with a result that can be summed up in two words: feeding frenzy.
By Tuesday's dramatic game against China, when Spain came from 14 points behind in the fourth quarter to win in overtime, a full house in Wukesong Arena booed every Spanish possession.
Worse, the photo was added to a list of more serious incidents involving Spain: Soccer Coach Luis Aragones' racial remark at France's Thierry Henry; crowds taunting English players in Madrid's Santiago Bernabeu Stadium and Formula One driver Lewis Hamilton in a race in Barcelona. Meanwhile, the Spanish basketball players were apologizing for all they were worth. Pau Gasol said it was a joke and was "sorry if anybody thought or took it the wrong way."
That was "not good enough" for The Times’ Bill Plaschke, from "someone who makes millions of dollars in Los Angeles, in a country and city with a strong Asian American influence."
Personally, I thought it was fine since, however ham-handed the photo was, it was actually intended as a salute.
The Spanish team is sponsored by the Chinese sportswear company Li-Ning. The idea for the photo with the players gathered around a drawing of a Chinese dragon came from Seur, the Spanish courier company, which shot the photo for newspaper ads.
"As for the reaction here, it's always pretty much the same in these cases," says Jorge Sierra, the Spanish editor of the international website Hoopshype.com.
"People get defensive and don't understand what the big fuss is all about, which I can understand in this case because there was no ill will intended.
"That wasn't the case with the incidents at the Bernabeu game and the F1 circuit, which were flat-out embarrassing. . . .
"People here don't appreciate being singled out as especially racist. I don't have any numbers to support it, but I would bet the farm that proportionally there are more interracial marriages and couples with men and women from different countries here than in most nations around Spain. Yes, we do have a problem with racism -- but just like everybody else."
There is also a question of style here as opposed to substance.
The "politically correct" standard our papers use (and are often criticized for) started in the U.S., and is working its way, however unevenly, through the rest of the world, like blue jeans and rock 'n' roll.
My first experience with a Spanish team came at a qualifying tournament in France in 1984 where Coach Antonio Diaz-Miguel congratulated the English team -- largely made up of African American U.S. college players -- on their "beautiful suntans."
Not that we should get too carried away with our own exquisite "sensitivity."
There is a tendency to regard one's own problems as something we're working on and those of others as problems, enabling us to chastise the Chinese on human rights while Guantanamo Bay remains an issue.
For Western visitors, it's a trip to read the state-owned China Daily, which maintains the official line but is so hip, down to the front-page Hooters ad with the color photo of four Hooters girls (same uniform as in the U.S.).
In any case, the Spaniards weren't booed in Thursday's 72-59 win over Germany that made them 3-0, going into the U.S. game. It's just basketball again, all Spain hopes.
http://www.latimes.com/sports/olympics/la-...0,5215510.story
In closing I will pose this question to you: What kind of world are we living in where we cant even respectfully poke fun at the little physical and cultural differences between us?
QUOTE(francophile16 @ Aug 14 2008, 03:29 PM)
How does that ad not correspond to that last definition?
I mean no disrespect when I say that I do not see how that photo was either irrational nor hostile to Chinese people.
QUOTE(Andres. @ Aug 14 2008, 03:37 PM)
I mean no disrespect when I say that I do not see how that photo was either irrational nor hostile to Chinese people.
None taken
True, the ad isn't outright hostile. The reason i find the ad irrational, however, is due to the context in which it was published. I don't mean to get all idealistic here but this ad goes against all that the Olympics stand for: disregarding socio-economic and cultural differences in order to create a level playing ground upon which the world's greatest athletes are allowed compete against one another. Yeah national pride plays a big part in the Olympics, but expressing it in a form that draws upon contrasts, rather than similarities, kinda defeats the purpose.
QUOTE(Andres. @ Aug 14 2008, 03:37 PM)
In closing I will pose this question to you: What kind of world are we living in where we cant even respectfully poke fun at the little physical and cultural differences between us?
Bringing up differences is all well and good, but there are certain times and places for it. The stereotypes made in the Simpsons, in South Park, or whatever comedy series differs from this instance because these programs are meant to be comedic. These shows provide a ground for humored stereotypes, regardless of the target populace. Fat Americans, snobby Brits, smelly Frenchmen, backwards Spandiards, communist Russians, and all other stereotypes are fair game in this environment as the audience is expected to interpret them under the umbrella of comedy. The Spanish NT ad gives a similarly comedic vibe that is not necessarily befitting to its purpose, which I assume is to demonstrate a degree of excitement and preparation for the Beijing games.
Bottom line is that the ad was not executed well. I'm sure the creators of the ad knew beforehand that they were running a risk of coming across as racist. Why take that risk? As I said before, there are hundreds of other ways to convey the same message without the racial undertones.
I actually found the picture funny, it was a light hearted gesture towards the Chinease, nothing racist about it.
Its seems you have to be OTT PC to be cool these days.
Its seems you have to be OTT PC to be cool these days.
Get the Chinese players to return the gesture by opening their eyes wide with their fingers (thereby imitating the oval-shaped, "European" feature of their Spanish counterparts' eyes) in a team picture and this issue would all be over with.
That rather useless suggestion aside, I think I've encountered enough people who pointed out their misconceptions about East Asian people in my lifetime to know whether they were doing it out of ignorance or in jest. I personally don't see the hostility in that picture, it was probably an ill-advised pose, but I don't believe any of the players or coaches (or indeed the sponsorship crew) had any malicious feelings toward the Chinese when the photo was snapped.
That rather useless suggestion aside, I think I've encountered enough people who pointed out their misconceptions about East Asian people in my lifetime to know whether they were doing it out of ignorance or in jest. I personally don't see the hostility in that picture, it was probably an ill-advised pose, but I don't believe any of the players or coaches (or indeed the sponsorship crew) had any malicious feelings toward the Chinese when the photo was snapped.
The furious defence Andres has had to do on this thread says it all.
The gesture is idiotic. Simple as that. How any right minded human being can defend the picture is worrying indeed.
If the Spanish team were pushing their lips out in reference to black people, they would rightly be called out for the racists they are. This gesture is exactly the same. I think everyone is aware Chinese people are different in appearance to us Europeans, the last thing anyone needs is a bunch of ignorant basketball players pointing it out for a cheap laugh.
The gesture is idiotic. Simple as that. How any right minded human being can defend the picture is worrying indeed.
If the Spanish team were pushing their lips out in reference to black people, they would rightly be called out for the racists they are. This gesture is exactly the same. I think everyone is aware Chinese people are different in appearance to us Europeans, the last thing anyone needs is a bunch of ignorant basketball players pointing it out for a cheap laugh.
Well thank you for ignoring what I wrote Mr. Moscow, I appreciate your feedback.
I suppose I'm not right minded, my furious defense is just proving that I have a guilty conscious, your right thats says it all.
Yup I'm wrong, I give in.
It was silly gesture and an unnecessary risk taken in today's politically correct world. Despite knowing this, the team did it anyway because of the thrill of it and they just had to get this outrageously racist stereotype out so the world can see it. The truth is that we're all very very very racist. Get it, if you don't look like me then I don't like you and yup, I will make fun of you. Actually I spoke to Pau Gasol yesterday and he said that he wished the Olympics were being held in an African nation so he could push "his lips out out in reference to black people" as Mr. Moscow suggested. The LA Lakers should sell him back to a European team before they start having Asian rights demonstrations outside the Staples Center next season - no need for the bad press. The basketball team should be sent home for this act of hostility to the hosts, how dare they. Madrid doesn't deserve the bid they got for the Olympics in 2016 either, it goes against the Olympic spirit to hold the event in a blatantly backwards fascist-racist city.
Was this the correct reaction to this photo you wanted to hear?
Yup thank you for showing me the errors of my ways.
I suppose I'm not right minded, my furious defense is just proving that I have a guilty conscious, your right thats says it all.
Yup I'm wrong, I give in.
It was silly gesture and an unnecessary risk taken in today's politically correct world. Despite knowing this, the team did it anyway because of the thrill of it and they just had to get this outrageously racist stereotype out so the world can see it. The truth is that we're all very very very racist. Get it, if you don't look like me then I don't like you and yup, I will make fun of you. Actually I spoke to Pau Gasol yesterday and he said that he wished the Olympics were being held in an African nation so he could push "his lips out out in reference to black people" as Mr. Moscow suggested. The LA Lakers should sell him back to a European team before they start having Asian rights demonstrations outside the Staples Center next season - no need for the bad press. The basketball team should be sent home for this act of hostility to the hosts, how dare they. Madrid doesn't deserve the bid they got for the Olympics in 2016 either, it goes against the Olympic spirit to hold the event in a blatantly backwards fascist-racist city.
Was this the correct reaction to this photo you wanted to hear?
Yup thank you for showing me the errors of my ways.
Just to point out, but your sarcasm is really bad, and getting a bit old.
Anyway, I don't see how you could defend this picture, as Moscow said about the black people, it's the same thing. I think it's poor taste and it seems like something a 1st grader would do.
Anyway, I don't see how you could defend this picture, as Moscow said about the black people, it's the same thing. I think it's poor taste and it seems like something a 1st grader would do.
I've never been to spain so I wont comment on how racist the place might be but this picture is retarded. Whether its a PC world going over the top or not, if no one involved in making the ad knew they type of consequences this would have they're stupid. If they also didn't think the picture would be seen by anyone besides Spanish citizens then they're oblivious and stupid. Thats something I cant believe. Imagine football was an olympic sport and T.O. did something like that. You think he wouldn't suffer at the hands of the media? This isn't an all out attack on Spain and I'm guessing the reason the English media picked up on it first is because its the most hungry for a story(that i've experienced) imo. The Chinese fans booed the spanish team which says enough for me. It was offensive.
America's racist as fuck and hypocritical as hell too, see the govt condemning russia for activities in georgia, but that doesn't excuse this type of pic. Malicious, no. Irresponsible and easily seen as racist yes. Its a way of making fun of a culture's genetic traits which obviously wont sit well with that said culture, who is your host, the players and anyone else involved should've been smarter. If a picture of a team came out where they all wore black-face I'd be offended whether they meant it as a joke or not. When I watch South Park I can deal with stuff like that and laugh because its a commentary on how an idiot like Cartman is an ignorant racist. The fact that there's a lot of people like him make it both harsh and funny. This is in a different context.
America's racist as fuck and hypocritical as hell too, see the govt condemning russia for activities in georgia, but that doesn't excuse this type of pic. Malicious, no. Irresponsible and easily seen as racist yes. Its a way of making fun of a culture's genetic traits which obviously wont sit well with that said culture, who is your host, the players and anyone else involved should've been smarter. If a picture of a team came out where they all wore black-face I'd be offended whether they meant it as a joke or not. When I watch South Park I can deal with stuff like that and laugh because its a commentary on how an idiot like Cartman is an ignorant racist. The fact that there's a lot of people like him make it both harsh and funny. This is in a different context.
QUOTE(Moscow2008 @ Aug 14 2008, 09:04 PM)
The furious defence Andres has had to do on this thread says it all.
The gesture is idiotic. Simple as that. How any right minded human being can defend the picture is worrying indeed.
If the Spanish team were pushing their lips out in reference to black people, they would rightly be called out for the racists they are. This gesture is exactly the same. I think everyone is aware Chinese people are different in appearance to us Europeans, the last thing anyone needs is a bunch of ignorant basketball players pointing it out for a cheap laugh.
The gesture is idiotic. Simple as that. How any right minded human being can defend the picture is worrying indeed.
If the Spanish team were pushing their lips out in reference to black people, they would rightly be called out for the racists they are. This gesture is exactly the same. I think everyone is aware Chinese people are different in appearance to us Europeans, the last thing anyone needs is a bunch of ignorant basketball players pointing it out for a cheap laugh.
I completely agree. There is absolutely no excuse for that photo.
Apparently the Spanish Tennis Federation took a similar photo?
EDIT: Here's the link
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/otherspor...ed-gesture.html
EDIT: Here's the link
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/otherspor...ed-gesture.html
^^^ Yeah.
Lol, disgraceful.
Not once, but twice...
Not once, but twice...
Why the Federation would even post that picture on their website (and with that caption)for everybody to see is beyond me. 
^All in good fun I suppose.
People in China haven't really seen this photo tbh, but i can tell you that some Chinese-Canadians are very offended by this...
Mostly Chinese overseas will see it as more offensive because it might be something that they have been made fun of before... whereas in China, why would a chinese person mock another chinese person? (Which is why only overseas chinese will understand why it's offensive)
We've yet to hear a proper comment from both sides so i will reserve my judgment for now, i don't think the Spanish sports federation (or whatever) understands how offensive it is to certain people. Although i find it more insensitive than racist.
(Reactions here)
Mostly Chinese overseas will see it as more offensive because it might be something that they have been made fun of before... whereas in China, why would a chinese person mock another chinese person? (Which is why only overseas chinese will understand why it's offensive)
We've yet to hear a proper comment from both sides so i will reserve my judgment for now, i don't think the Spanish sports federation (or whatever) understands how offensive it is to certain people. Although i find it more insensitive than racist.
(Reactions here)
why jose calderon why!!!
well at least Spain was routed 
Racism is a phenomenon that plagues all human societies, that is a fact. Human beings as a whole have not yet evolved to a level of consciousness where they can look at all people of all races, religions, ethnicities etc. in exactly the same light. Some societies, namely the British and American, have developed a PC culture that provides a thin veil to mask a racism that still exists.
Spain, as a country, has a more "racist" reputation than others in the Western developed world, mostly because of incidents having to do with sport. However, something that is conspicuously absent from Spain have been any sort of racial protest, like the race riots in the Banlieus in Paris, or the protests from Turks in Germany, or the race riots in America in the early 90s. Whenever a society has a sudden influx of "different" people, historically there have been tremendous problems. Spain, all things considered, has done a very good job assimilating a large immigrant class in the last 5-10 years, most of which are north african muslims, Amerindians from South America, and Eastern European slavs. There simply isn't the systemic brand of racism that exists in France, for example. France, a country where a candidate can run an openly xenophobic platform and get a significant portion of the votes, where african immigrants consistently get snubbed out of comfy, secure jobs the french economy is famous for. Then there is the United States, a country that has been multi-racial for much longer than any other of the major powers, still has a tremendous disparity in wealth and power between whites and people of color. A recent study that was published all over the media showed that "minorities" will actually be the majority in one generation in America, yet the if you look at the board rooms of the fortune 500 companies, and people in the government, this reality is not reflected. I say we concentrate our furious outrage on something more significant and harmful than a picture with zero malice in it.
This is what frustrates me about the moralistic outrage coming from the British and American media, and from what I can gather general population, over such a harmless thing like this photo. When there are grave examples of a much more hidden, dangerous, and vicious racism that is deeply embedded within the system. A good example of the sheer hypocrisy of the western media outlets' crusade against Spain is the furious defense of free speech during the Danish Muslim Cartoon incident. Those cartoons were infinitely more offensive, insensitive, and blatant than this picture will ever be. There, the worldwide muslim community was united in its outrage, something that simply hasn't happened in China. I know that the Chinese embassy in Madrid has declared that the picture is neither offensive nor racist.
Spain, as a country, has a more "racist" reputation than others in the Western developed world, mostly because of incidents having to do with sport. However, something that is conspicuously absent from Spain have been any sort of racial protest, like the race riots in the Banlieus in Paris, or the protests from Turks in Germany, or the race riots in America in the early 90s. Whenever a society has a sudden influx of "different" people, historically there have been tremendous problems. Spain, all things considered, has done a very good job assimilating a large immigrant class in the last 5-10 years, most of which are north african muslims, Amerindians from South America, and Eastern European slavs. There simply isn't the systemic brand of racism that exists in France, for example. France, a country where a candidate can run an openly xenophobic platform and get a significant portion of the votes, where african immigrants consistently get snubbed out of comfy, secure jobs the french economy is famous for. Then there is the United States, a country that has been multi-racial for much longer than any other of the major powers, still has a tremendous disparity in wealth and power between whites and people of color. A recent study that was published all over the media showed that "minorities" will actually be the majority in one generation in America, yet the if you look at the board rooms of the fortune 500 companies, and people in the government, this reality is not reflected. I say we concentrate our furious outrage on something more significant and harmful than a picture with zero malice in it.
This is what frustrates me about the moralistic outrage coming from the British and American media, and from what I can gather general population, over such a harmless thing like this photo. When there are grave examples of a much more hidden, dangerous, and vicious racism that is deeply embedded within the system. A good example of the sheer hypocrisy of the western media outlets' crusade against Spain is the furious defense of free speech during the Danish Muslim Cartoon incident. Those cartoons were infinitely more offensive, insensitive, and blatant than this picture will ever be. There, the worldwide muslim community was united in its outrage, something that simply hasn't happened in China. I know that the Chinese embassy in Madrid has declared that the picture is neither offensive nor racist.
QUOTE(Nando. @ Aug 18 2008, 11:21 AM)
This is what frustrates me about the moralistic outrage coming from the British and American media, and from what I can gather general population, over such a harmless thing like this photo. When there are grave examples of a much hidden, dangerous, and vicious racism that is deeply embedded within the system. A good example of the sheer hypocrisy of the western media outlets' crusade against Spain is the furious defense of free speech during the Danish Muslim Cartoon incident. Those cartoons were infinitely more offensive, insensitive, and blatant than this picture will ever be. There, the worldwide muslim community was united in its outrage, something that simply hasn't happened in China. I know that the Chinese embassy in Madrid has declared that the picture is neither offensive nor racist.
Thank you Nando for explaining exactly how I feel!
This insane level of hypocrisy and the fact that seemingly intelligent Americans and Britons could not see through it seriously enfuriated me, and from what I can tell, a hell of alot of other Spaniards.
QUOTE(Nando. @ Aug 18 2008, 08:21 AM)
This is what frustrates me about the moralistic outrage coming from the British and American media, and from what I can gather general population, over such a harmless thing like this photo. When there are grave examples of a much hidden, dangerous, and vicious racism that is deeply embedded within the system. A good example of the sheer hypocrisy of the western media outlets' crusade against Spain is the furious defense of free speech during the Danish Muslim Cartoon incident. Those cartoons were infinitely more offensive, insensitive, and blatant than this picture will ever be. There, the worldwide muslim community was united in its outrage, something that simply hasn't happened in China. I know that the Chinese embassy in Madrid has declared that the picture is neither offensive nor racist.
The difference is mocking a religion and mocking an ethnicity or a nationality. Mocking and questioning a religion, even if it is in bad taste or disgustingly ignorant, is the cornerstone of civil society. Now that doesn't mean bad taste or appalling ignorance shouldn't be condemned, because it should. And it should be done so loudly. BUT EVERYBODY SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO PUBLISH OR MAKE THEIR OPINION KNOWN. Everybody. Neo-Nazis, radical and misogynist Wahhabi extremists, Christian fundamentalists, racists, Stalinists, etc. The whole bag of horrors that make up the filth of society. They all have a right to their opinion and the right to voice them, without the threat of violent repercussion. What they don't have a right to do is commit violence in the name of their ideology or faith or to oppress the rights of others with whom they disagree. That's what the Danish Cartoon "controversy" was about. It's not about taste, it's about the right to publish bad taste and to not be be killed or harmed for it. And whether or not a group or the society at large agrees with it or likes it is irrelevant. It's for our own good. After all, not all the cartoons published that mock Christianity are in good taste. Can you imagine if Southern Baptists rioted in the manner of those few extremists (and it was a very, very small minority of Muslims that actually overreacted in such a way...most of whom lived outside of Denmark in the first place) because they took offense at a cartoon that mocked their beliefs? They would be condemned unhesitatingly and immediately by the larger population as a whole, with swift support coming to the publishers of those cartoons. Why should Islam be any different?
And no, the prejudices facing Muslims is no excuse. It is simply wrong to conflate the criticism of a religion with bigotry. And one of the most effective ways to criticize is to use humor, even if it unfunny or vulgar. Condescension is its own facet of bigotry, and to shield Islam from the same insults that other religions receive isn't done out of care or consideration or "respect. It's done out of fear. "Islamophobia" has now transmuted into a word that implies racial hatred, when their is no way fear of a religion implies the fear of a race or an ethnic group. After all, anybody from anywhere can be Muslim. Prejudice and fear of a religious group should certainly be condemned, but like the claim of "Anti-Semitism", "Islamophobia" is now used to try and tarnish and silence the religion's critics, even if they are fair and reasonable. This is incredibly dangerous. Western society is the way it is today because of centuries of brutal religious conflict. Now certainly, their are many flaws that plague western society. But secularism is one of it's most precious developments. This only comes by challenging the claims of religion. It's the reason that Christianity is as benign as it is now. Because it went through this process several centuries ago (with the Enlightenment). Islam is going through that process now. And rather than silence those who question and mock the most fanatical faction of the it, they should be supported and the threats of violence against such critics swiftly condemned. Or rather, their right to question should be supported unequivocally. The most dangerous thing is to cave into the threat of violence when it comes to free speech. It's that whole "give an inch, and they'll take a mile" cliche.
You also have your facts wrong. Those cartoons were published in Denmark a full six months before the violence broke out. Why the delayed reaction? Because a single fanatical cleric, who had immigrated to Denmark years earlier, was looking to create a political effect in the country. He went and he hocked those pictures around the Middle East, even adding a few extra cartoons to the dossier that weren't in the original publication, and created something that was originally nothing. Vast majority of the Muslims around the world, and in Denmark, while they thought the cartoons were in bad taste, couldn't have cared less. A Palestinian immigrant to the country, who is now a Danish MP, stated publicly that such things were just a part of living in a society like Denmark. Others groups 'suffered' them, and as Danes they didn't want any special treatment (of the positive or negative variety), and that it was simply one crazy looking to gain attention for his agenda in the best way he knew how. Yes, they're Muslim, but they're also Danish, which meant that the rules that applied to other groups in Denmark also applied to them as well. And there was by no means broad support for the violence from the Muslim community at large. It was simply a maniacal minority that used a tactic they knew to be effective in order to get what they wanted.
And those cartoons were published for a more transcendent reason. They weren't published simply parody, they were published to defy the active, knee-jerk censorship that occurs when the subjects are the tenets of a particular religion. You can question the tactic, but it's a problem that hasn't really been dealt with well or at all. The same cannot be said of the photographs with the Spanish national basketball team. Far from it, in fact. They are simply making fun of how a different group of people look. Is it vicious? No. Is it in good taste? Definitely not. But imagine this hypothetical scenario. What if the American basketball team had taken such a picture? I can only begin to contemplate the uproar. So why the double-standard? This is probably contributes to in a sense to the "outrage" (calling it that really flatters the significance of the incident). All corners, including Spain, would have almost certainly censured the USA team. And why are the Spanish, or at least some of their supporters, surprised by the reaction? Especially after some of the more recent incidents, like what happened to Louis Hamilton (which was disgusting) or what Aragones called Henry, it's clear that there are "issues". Obviously, Spain is not alone (just look at Italy, among other places) nor is it the worst. But part of it, at least for me, is the the apparent shamelessness. Lack of awareness, is probably a better term. Did they not think that the international media, might, you know, possibly, get a hold of such pictures? And how did the Spanish media or populace think they would react? No advertisement like that would ever be published in America without a massive public outcry. It just seems to me that there are other ways to celebrate being at the Beijing Olympics besides doing "squinty-eyes".
Also, the fact that Jean-Marie Le Pen (assuming that that is who you're talking about) can run for office in France is a demonstration of the health of their democracy, not the opposite. That people would be so inclined to vote for such a candidate speaks for the state of things there, but if you want free and fair elections, then any candidate who wants to should, theoretically, be allowed to run. And people should be allowed to vote for him.
Anyways, this will be my only post on this. Apologies for the off-topic, but I wanted to demonstrate how the Danish Cartoon controversy was very different than how Nando described it to be. It's not meant to be a discussion of religion, so I hope I haven't violated the TOS. Mods feel free to erase this post if you think it steps over the line. And if it does, apologies in advance.
QUOTE
August 15, 2008, 1:04 am
‘Friendly’ Offense: Spanish Gestures Fail to Rile China
Over the past couple of days, there’s been a global outcry over an ad that appeared in a Spanish newspaper that featured the national basketball teams pulling up the skin at their temples to give their eyes a slanted effect. Initially, the Spanish team defended the ad, saying no harm was intended and that the ad was meant to show affection for the Olympic host country.
But under continued and mounting criticism, yesterday NBA guard Jose Calderon expressed regrets on behalf of the team. “We apologize to Asian people if they were offended,” he told reporters after Spain’s win over Germany.
The International Olympic Committee said the ad was inappropriate and accepted the team’s apology. “As far as we are concerned, the matter rests,” said spokeswoman Giselle Davies at a press conference yesterday.
Meanwhile, Gawker notes that there’s a picture of the women’s tennis team making a similar gesture up on the Web site of the Spanish Tennis Federation.
But in China, where perceived slights by foreigners have led to fiery Internet campaigns, protests and boycotts, there have been few demands for an apology from Spain. The response, online and off, has been surprisingly muted.
Though boos were heard when Spain played China in a tight game on Tuesday, at yesterday’s Spain-Germany basketball game, Chinese spectators didn’t express any animosity towards the Spanish team. “The Spanish players are so good that the crowd was really into just cheering them on,” said one spectator.
Few Chinese seem to know what the gesture means. Even after an explanation that it represents “Chinese eyes” and can be used mockingly, the typical response is that it seems “friendly” or “affectionate.”
–Sky Canaves
http://blogs.wsj.com/chinajournal/2008/08/...-to-rile-china/
‘Friendly’ Offense: Spanish Gestures Fail to Rile China
Over the past couple of days, there’s been a global outcry over an ad that appeared in a Spanish newspaper that featured the national basketball teams pulling up the skin at their temples to give their eyes a slanted effect. Initially, the Spanish team defended the ad, saying no harm was intended and that the ad was meant to show affection for the Olympic host country.
But under continued and mounting criticism, yesterday NBA guard Jose Calderon expressed regrets on behalf of the team. “We apologize to Asian people if they were offended,” he told reporters after Spain’s win over Germany.
The International Olympic Committee said the ad was inappropriate and accepted the team’s apology. “As far as we are concerned, the matter rests,” said spokeswoman Giselle Davies at a press conference yesterday.
Meanwhile, Gawker notes that there’s a picture of the women’s tennis team making a similar gesture up on the Web site of the Spanish Tennis Federation.
But in China, where perceived slights by foreigners have led to fiery Internet campaigns, protests and boycotts, there have been few demands for an apology from Spain. The response, online and off, has been surprisingly muted.
Though boos were heard when Spain played China in a tight game on Tuesday, at yesterday’s Spain-Germany basketball game, Chinese spectators didn’t express any animosity towards the Spanish team. “The Spanish players are so good that the crowd was really into just cheering them on,” said one spectator.
Few Chinese seem to know what the gesture means. Even after an explanation that it represents “Chinese eyes” and can be used mockingly, the typical response is that it seems “friendly” or “affectionate.”
–Sky Canaves
http://blogs.wsj.com/chinajournal/2008/08/...-to-rile-china/
Apparently the Chinese feel the same way about the gesture that the Spanish do, that is if you believe the Wall Street Journal.
QUOTE(Scirea6&7 @ Aug 18 2008, 02:51 PM)
The difference is mocking a religion and mocking an ethnicity or a nationality. Mocking and questioning a religion, even if it is in bad taste or disgustingly ignorant, is the cornerstone of civil society. Now that doesn't mean bad taste or appalling ignorance shouldn't be condemned, because it should. And it should be done so loudly. BUT EVERYBODY SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO PUBLISH OR MAKE THEIR OPINION KNOWN. Everybody. Neo-Nazis, radical and misogynist Wahhabi extremists, Christian fundamentalists, racists, Stalinists, etc. The whole bag of horrors that make up the filth of society. They all have a right to their opinion and the right to voice them, without the threat of violent repercussion. What they don't have a right to do is commit violence in the name of their ideology or faith or to oppress the rights of others with whom they disagree. That's what the Danish Cartoon "controversy" was about. It's not about taste, it's about the right to publish bad taste and to not be be killed or harmed for it. And whether or not a group or the society at large agrees with it or likes it is irrelevant. It's for our own good. After all, not all the cartoons published that mock Christianity are in good taste. Can you imagine if Southern Baptists rioted in the manner of those few extremists (and it was a very, very small minority of Muslims that actually overreacted in such a way...most of whom lived outside of Denmark in the first place) because they took offense at a cartoon that mocked their beliefs? They would be condemned unhesitatingly and immediately by the larger population as a whole, with swift support coming to the publishers of those cartoons. Why should Islam be any different?
And no, the prejudices facing Muslims is no excuse. It is simply wrong to conflate the criticism of a religion with bigotry. And one of the most effective ways to criticize is to use humor, even if it unfunny or vulgar. Condescension is its own facet of bigotry, and to shield Islam from the same insults that other religions receive isn't done out of care or consideration or "respect. It's done out of fear. "Islamophobia" has now transmuted into a word that implies racial hatred, when their is no way fear of a religion implies the fear of a race or an ethnic group. After all, anybody from anywhere can be Muslim. Prejudice and fear of a religious group should certainly be condemned, but like the claim of "Anti-Semitism", "Islamophobia" is now used to try and tarnish and silence the religion's critics, even if they are fair and reasonable. This is incredibly dangerous. Western society is the way it is today because of centuries of brutal religious conflict. Now certainly, their are many flaws that plague western society. But secularism is one of it's most precious developments. This only comes by challenging the claims of religion. It's the reason that Christianity is as benign as it is now. Because it went through this process several centuries ago (with the Enlightenment). Islam is going through that process now. And rather than silence those who question and mock the most fanatical faction of the it, they should be supported and the threats of violence against such critics swiftly condemned. Or rather, their right to question should be supported unequivocally. The most dangerous thing is to cave into the threat of violence when it comes to free speech. It's that whole "give an inch, and they'll take a mile" cliche.
You also have your facts wrong. Those cartoons were published in Denmark a full six months before the violence broke out. Why the delayed reaction? Because a single fanatical cleric, who had immigrated to Denmark years earlier, was looking to create a political effect in the country. He went and he hocked those pictures around the Middle East, even adding a few extra cartoons to the dossier that weren't in the original publication, and created something that was originally nothing. Vast majority of the Muslims around the world, and in Denmark, while they thought the cartoons were in bad taste, couldn't have cared less. A Palestinian immigrant to the country, who is now a Danish MP, stated publicly that such things were just a part of living in a society like Denmark. Others groups 'suffered' them, and as Danes they didn't want any special treatment (of the positive or negative variety), and that it was simply one crazy looking to gain attention for his agenda in the best way he knew how. Yes, they're Muslim, but they're also Danish, which meant that the rules that applied to other groups in Denmark also applied to them as well. And there was by no means broad support for the violence from the Muslim community at large. It was simply a maniacal minority that used a tactic they knew to be effective in order to get what they wanted.
I didn't intend to get into a long debate on this issue, and I actually agree. I am in favor of their right to publish said cartoons. I was merely pointing out the irony in the fact that in that situation, the party in question was very offended by it, while now the party is clearly not, yet a third party is the one making all the rumpus.
QUOTE(Scirea6&7 @ Aug 18 2008, 02:51 PM)
The same cannot be said of the photographs with the Spanish national basketball team. Far from it, in fact. They are simply making fun of how a different group of people look. Is it vicious? No. Is it in good taste? Definitely not.
How often do you see Spaniards portrayed wearing bullfighting outfits and Sevillana dress? How often do you see a frenchman portrayed stereotypically as a thinly moustached, beret wearing, arrogant snob? How often is an Italian person depicted as a fat chef making spaghetti and meatballs? These aren't vicious attacks at all, nor should they be taken as such. I know some Spaniards, especially Catalans, that really resent that stereotype, but no one makes a fuss about it. I'm not saying I agree with their resentment, but it exists.
QUOTE(Scirea6&7 @ Aug 18 2008, 02:51 PM)
But imagine this hypothetical scenario. What if the American basketball team had taken such a picture? I can only begin to contemplate the uproar. So why the double-standard? This is probably contributes to in a sense to the "outrage" (calling it that really flatters the significance of the incident). All corners, including Spain, would have almost certainly censured the USA team.
First of all the second part of this purely speculative. Who knows if the uproar would be more or less. But what I do know is that not many people seem to have a problem with this, in America:
The Washington REDskins. Where's the moralistic outrage? Native American groups have been trying to get the logo changed for years, it obviously offends them? It's blatantly hypocritical and I have very little patience for it.
QUOTE(Scirea6&7 @ Aug 18 2008, 02:51 PM)
And why are the Spanish, or at least some of their supporters, surprised by the reaction? Especially after some of the more recent incidents, like what happened to Louis Hamilton (which was disgusting) or what Aragones called Henry, it's clear that there are "issues". Obviously, Spain is not alone (just look at Italy, among other places) nor is it the worst. But part of it, at least for me, is the the apparent shamelessness. Lack of awareness, is probably a better term.
If you actually believe that then you are sorely mistaken. The media is always quick to condemn the incidents, and people are certainly embarrassed by them. What they resent is the British media, especially, mounting their particular crusades and making Spain out to be something that it is clearly not. Do you know how often I've had to hear the words "Spain is a racist country"? My only response is, every country, including yours is just as, if not more racist. What bothers me in particular is the finger pointing from atop a high horse, because there are clearly "issues", as you say, everywhere.
QUOTE(Scirea6&7 @ Aug 18 2008, 02:51 PM)
Also, the fact that Jean-Marie Le Pen (assuming that that is who you're talking about) can run for office in France is a demonstration of the health of their democracy, not the opposite. That people would be so inclined to vote for such a candidate speaks for the state of things there, but if you want free and fair elections, then any candidate who wants to should, theoretically, be allowed to run. And people should be allowed to vote for him.
You misunderstood the intent of my statement on that. I never said that France should ban Le Pen or his supporters, far from it. I am extremely in favor of a citizen's right to vote for whom they choose
However, it does say a lot about racism in a particularly society if a significant portion of said society actively votes for a person that is not only openly racist, but makes it his main political platform. A guy like Le Pen would never have that kind of support in "racist" Spain, yet we're the ones that have "issues".
QUOTE(Nando. @ Aug 18 2008, 01:12 PM)
I didn't intend to get into a long debate on this issue, and I actually agree. I am in favor of their right to publish said cartoons. I was merely pointing out the irony in the fact that in that situation, the party in question was very offended by it, while now the party is clearly not, yet a third party is the one making all the rumpus.
We agree, but I don't think then that the Danish cartoon controversy would be an apt analogy. For the simple fact that a vast majority of the party in question wasn't offended by it all. Only a very, very small minority were outraged, and they're outraged by anything and everything anyways. Also, it's not as if people came rushing to defend the Danish newspaper's right to publish. Most bent over backwards to try to appease the threat of violence and blamed the paper for bringing the trouble onto itself.
But I get the point you were trying to make. I just don't think that this example fits.
QUOTE(Nando. @ Aug 18 2008, 01:12 PM)
How often do you see Spaniards portrayed wearing bullfighting outfits and Sevillana dress? How often do you see a frenchman portrayed stereotypically as a thinly moustached, beret wearing, arrogant snob? How often is an Italian person depicted as a fat chef making spaghetti and meatballs? These aren't vicious attacks at all, nor should they be taken as such. I know some Spaniards, especially Catalans, that really resent that stereotype, but no one makes a fuss about it. I'm not saying I agree with their resentment, but it exists.
I'm not sure the point you were trying to make with this. If what you're saying is that caricatures of all sorts are prevalent, then I wholeheartedly agree. It makes the Spanish no better or no worse, and I never said it did.
QUOTE(Nando. @ Aug 18 2008, 01:12 PM)
First of all the second part of this purely speculative. Who knows if the uproar would be more or less. But what I do know is that not many people seem to have a problem with this, in America:
The Washington REDskins. Where's the moralistic outrage? Native American groups have been trying to get the logo changed for years, it obviously offends them? It's blatantly hypocritical and I have very little patience for it.
The Washington REDskins. Where's the moralistic outrage? Native American groups have been trying to get the logo changed for years, it obviously offends them? It's blatantly hypocritical and I have very little patience for it.
I know it's purely speculative. Hence why I wrote "hypothetically". But that doesn't mean that it's an unreasonable conjecture. If you think that if the US Men's Basketball team would get any less coverage or criticism than Spain did if they took such a photograph, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. Likewise for any other country with equivalent prominence. Not only would the American press be out for blood, but I can only imagine the attention it would garner in other countries (yes, including Spain). Could you imagine Kobe Bryant doing "squinty-eyes" and then explaining himself by saying his Chinese sponsors told him to do it? Whether it was true or not, whether the Chinese took offense or not, it would be nightmarishly bad publicity, which frankly they would deserve to a certain extent for sheer stupidity. Would that make America anymore racist than most places? No, of course not. Likewise, with Spain. I have no doubt that the Spanish national team meant no harm. I just don't think anybody should be surprised by the attention it received, although I can understand why the Spanish would resent the virulence coming from some quarters, especially if it was used as a generalization to label them all as whole. That's completely unfair and despicable. I never made such an assumption, and neither did any of the editorials I read that talked about the incident.
The Atlanta Braves had an emblem of equal embarrassment. And there is no way this incident with the Spanish National team has garnered more attention than our own problems at home. Again, I never maintained that America has "clean hands" when it comes to racism. Far, far from it. But if you believe that nobody has the right to criticize Spain until those countries fix their own problems, then Spain has no right to reprimand others until they do the same. Then nobody could criticize anybody, and that would be self-defeating. What nobody has the right to do is admonish another if they ignore and under-emphasize their own problems. But calling it for what it is isn't self-righteous or hypocritical. It's the degree to which some of the media outlets have taken it that is, or at least that's what I perceive your complaint to be. The photograph and the idea behind it was inappropriate. Everybody has the right to acknowledge that if that's how it makes them feel. But anybody who uses it to make sweeping assumptions is a self-righteous hypocrite, because it says absolutely nothing about Spain as a whole.
QUOTE(Nando. @ Aug 18 2008, 01:12 PM)
If you actually believe that then you are sorely mistaken. The media is always quick to condemn the incidents, and people are certainly embarrassed by them. What they resent is the British media, especially, mounting their particular crusades and making Spain out to be something that it is clearly not. Do you know how often I've had to hear the words "Spain is a racist country"? My only response is, every country, including yours is just as, if not more racist. What bothers me in particular is the finger pointing from atop a high horse, because there are clearly "issues", as you say, everywhere.
Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I literally cannot fathom the NY Times or Sports Illustrated publishing an advertisement such as that. To me, it would be simply unimaginable. The reaction of the Chinese or the motivation behind the picture wouldn't matter. And I don't think your complaints about the British media are a Spanish exclusivity. After all, you're talking to someone who supports Italy. And while it's annoying, it's not really anything more
QUOTE(Nando. @ Aug 18 2008, 01:12 PM)
However, it does say a lot about racism in a particularly society if a significant portion of said society actively votes for a person that is not only openly racist, but makes it his main political platform. A guy like Le Pen would never have that kind of support in "racist" Spain, yet we're the ones that have "issues".
I hope I haven't give you the impression that I thought Spain was anymore racist than anywhere else. In fact I wrote that it had it's own share of problems, but so do all places. I haven't really noticed any targeting of Spain as a "racist" country, at least not in the American media. Admittedly, though, I don't pay that much attention to Spain at all for the most part. They showed the photograph of the basketball and tennis teams, as they would have any other country. A few editorials were written about the different treatment of European players to that of American players within the NBA, and how that needed to change if the league truly wanted to go global. But I haven't heard anybody from the media outlets that I pay attention to say that Spain is anymore racist a country than anywhere else. And it it certainly isn't given anymore attention than our own issues at home.
QUOTE(Andres. @ Aug 14 2008, 12:37 PM)
Look man you need to lighten up a bit. Its a silly photo, done by naive players who were not expecting to be misinterpreted. Please man stop making yourself feel good by pointing your moral finger at someone else, it does not do anyone good.
Of course racism exists in Spain, are you surprised by this? I am not denying that there are people in Spain, like in England, or this Chinese neighborhood where I reside in the United States or anywhere in the world, that are racist - what else do you want me to say. I don't agree with them, neither do most spaniards and the media has pointed at distasteful and racist behavior and denounced it, thats all you can do. Why do you feel the need to condemn Spaniards, this is not constructive, its just ugly and hipocritical.
I do not have to apologize for this picture because it is not racist, in fact the only way you can find this racist is because you are looking at this through a biased lense. Why is it racist to make slanted eyes, in fact by insisting that this is racist you are suggesting that it is undesirable to have slanted eyes. To do as these basketball players did here is seen as a racist gesture in the United States, where I presume you live, because there has been a history of racial abuse in this country directed at Asian using this gesture accompanied by a silly accent and whatnot. Have you seen the Simpsons, have you seen any American television, have you not noticed that they stereotype East Asians using this ALL THE TIME here? Spain does not have this history though, but by boldly claiming this is racist and the Spaniards should have known that this is now frowned upon in a different culture (i.e. America) your subjecting Spaniards to the same preconditions and racial tensions that I have to suffer through here in America and that is not fair to Gasol & co. Have you seen the Spanish table tennis team? Two of these players were born in China, if we were full of brazen racists like you are suggesting do you think they would be allowed to represent Spain, of course not.
These examples you've suggested are awful and unnecessary because the Spanish Basketball team hasn't done so. The fact of the matter is if they had Chinese robes or hats I'm sure they would have put them on instead, but they didn't. The sponsor asked them to make a wink suggesting that they were going to play in China and this is what they came up with, because when they think of Chinese people they think of a different contortion of the eyes. They did this as a sign of affection as stated by the players - Spaniards have a sense of humor which is vastly different from that of England or the US. This picture was taken for a spanish audience, when I think of the physical characteristics of a Chinese person I think of an individual with slanted eyes. I suppose this may be considered ignorant (even if its not inaccurate), but forgive us of our ignorance and understand that there was no malicious intent here.
If this is not enough have you even stopped to look if the Chinese government or the Chinese Basketball organization have complained about this ad? I'll answer this for you, no they haven't. Are you really surprised that the first media organizations to consider this racist were the English, who have been doing citing every single racial incident in Spain for years. I'm not so sure why they are adamant about this issue in Spain in particular. I'm not familiar with England, but to hear the American media complain about this with all the racist shit that goes on here on a daily basis is really really hipocritical and it upsets me. As the saying goes, fix up your house before you look for problems in mines.
Look I'm Spanish and I have the right to defend myself and my country from unwarranted attacks and labeling. Just to prove thats I'm not the only person who doesn't agree with the racist accusations I'll let Mark Heisler from the LA Times explain this for you:
In closing I will pose this question to you: What kind of world are we living in where we cant even respectfully poke fun at the little physical and cultural differences between us?
I mean no disrespect when I say that I do not see how that photo was either irrational nor hostile to Chinese people.
Of course racism exists in Spain, are you surprised by this? I am not denying that there are people in Spain, like in England, or this Chinese neighborhood where I reside in the United States or anywhere in the world, that are racist - what else do you want me to say. I don't agree with them, neither do most spaniards and the media has pointed at distasteful and racist behavior and denounced it, thats all you can do. Why do you feel the need to condemn Spaniards, this is not constructive, its just ugly and hipocritical.
I do not have to apologize for this picture because it is not racist, in fact the only way you can find this racist is because you are looking at this through a biased lense. Why is it racist to make slanted eyes, in fact by insisting that this is racist you are suggesting that it is undesirable to have slanted eyes. To do as these basketball players did here is seen as a racist gesture in the United States, where I presume you live, because there has been a history of racial abuse in this country directed at Asian using this gesture accompanied by a silly accent and whatnot. Have you seen the Simpsons, have you seen any American television, have you not noticed that they stereotype East Asians using this ALL THE TIME here? Spain does not have this history though, but by boldly claiming this is racist and the Spaniards should have known that this is now frowned upon in a different culture (i.e. America) your subjecting Spaniards to the same preconditions and racial tensions that I have to suffer through here in America and that is not fair to Gasol & co. Have you seen the Spanish table tennis team? Two of these players were born in China, if we were full of brazen racists like you are suggesting do you think they would be allowed to represent Spain, of course not.
These examples you've suggested are awful and unnecessary because the Spanish Basketball team hasn't done so. The fact of the matter is if they had Chinese robes or hats I'm sure they would have put them on instead, but they didn't. The sponsor asked them to make a wink suggesting that they were going to play in China and this is what they came up with, because when they think of Chinese people they think of a different contortion of the eyes. They did this as a sign of affection as stated by the players - Spaniards have a sense of humor which is vastly different from that of England or the US. This picture was taken for a spanish audience, when I think of the physical characteristics of a Chinese person I think of an individual with slanted eyes. I suppose this may be considered ignorant (even if its not inaccurate), but forgive us of our ignorance and understand that there was no malicious intent here.
If this is not enough have you even stopped to look if the Chinese government or the Chinese Basketball organization have complained about this ad? I'll answer this for you, no they haven't. Are you really surprised that the first media organizations to consider this racist were the English, who have been doing citing every single racial incident in Spain for years. I'm not so sure why they are adamant about this issue in Spain in particular. I'm not familiar with England, but to hear the American media complain about this with all the racist shit that goes on here on a daily basis is really really hipocritical and it upsets me. As the saying goes, fix up your house before you look for problems in mines.
Look I'm Spanish and I have the right to defend myself and my country from unwarranted attacks and labeling. Just to prove thats I'm not the only person who doesn't agree with the racist accusations I'll let Mark Heisler from the LA Times explain this for you:
In closing I will pose this question to you: What kind of world are we living in where we cant even respectfully poke fun at the little physical and cultural differences between us?
I mean no disrespect when I say that I do not see how that photo was either irrational nor hostile to Chinese people.
No one I am aware of has asked YOU to apologize for anything, you are who you are...And in choosing to defend these actions, well you've illuminated quite clearly who/what you are as well
Lemme guess, you aren't a minority, are you?...More to the point, you are in all likelihood caucasian
QUOTE(FCBarca @ Aug 19 2008, 03:34 PM)
No one I am aware of has asked YOU to apologize for anything, you are who you are...And in choosing to defend these actions, well you've illuminated quite clearly who/what you are as well
Lemme guess, you aren't a minority, are you?...More to the point, you are in all likelihood caucasian
Lemme guess, you aren't a minority, are you?...More to the point, you are in all likelihood caucasian
Well yes I am caucasian, though I am labeled by the US government as a minority. Its confusing I know, though I really don't feel disadvantaged or anything by it. If I've learned anything in my time on earth its that race relations are a very complicated issue and no one really understands it.
The reason for my defense of this is photo (this discussion has gotten far off track) is that I and many others take this inflamatory British yellow journalism as an attack on Spain as a whole, which I feel is misguided, highly hypocritical, and displays a lack of understanding and "ignorance" which is ironically what all Spaniards are being accused of here. If the British press wants to take this innocent gesture, misinterpret it, and use it as a means to spin Spain is a racist country than they can go right ahead and look as silly as the players do here, however I suggest they put their energy into something a little more substantial.
In any case this is a dead issue, the players have apologized for doing any harm while stating they meant no harm (they aren't lying) and the Chinese haven't expressed any mass outrage from what I have read. Spain and China have had good relations and I assume this will continue for years to come.
QUOTE(Andres. @ Aug 19 2008, 09:34 PM)
Well yes I am caucasian, though I am labeled by the US government as a minority. Its confusing I know, though I really don't feel disadvantaged or anything by it. If I've learned anything in my time on earth its that race relations are a very complicated issue and no one really understands it.
The reason for my defense of this is photo (this discussion has gotten far off track) is that I and many others take this inflamatory British yellow journalism as an attack on Spain as a whole, which I feel is misguided, highly hypocritical, and displays a lack of understanding and "ignorance" which is ironically what all Spaniards are being accused of here. If the British press wants to take this innocent gesture, misinterpret it, and use it as a means to spin Spain is a racist country than they can go right ahead and look as silly as the players do here, however I suggest they put their energy into something a little more substantial.
In any case this is a dead issue, the players have apologized for doing any harm while stating they meant no harm (they aren't lying) and the Chinese haven't expressed any mass outrage from what I have read. Spain and China have had good relations and I assume this will continue for years to come.
Same thing happened with the Theirry Henry incident. People will always be ignorant to things they fail to understand. Don't waste your time amigo.
^^Woah woah woah....hold it there bud. Are you talking about the Aragones incident? There was video of Aragones talking shit, he called Henry "puto negro," I don't know how you can get out of that one.
QUOTE(Paco España @ Aug 19 2008, 07:08 PM)
Same thing happened with the Theirry Henry incident. People will always be ignorant to things they fail to understand. Don't waste your time amigo.
Yeah dude I agree that its hard to explain but the Aragones thing was completely different, its apples and oranges. I'm not going to even attempt to justify that, its been universally agreed upon that this was unacceptable.
Anyway I'm done expressing my opinion on this topic, as I said I think its pretty much a dead issue.
QUOTE(Paco España @ Aug 20 2008, 12:08 AM)
Same thing happened with the Theirry Henry incident. People will always be ignorant to things they fail to understand. Don't waste your time amigo.
I would hazzard a guess the ones who seem to be least 'offended' by displays like this NT photo are people who haven't been victimized much from prejudice themselves...In other words, either caucasian or simply fly under the prejudicial radar
Well yes I am caucasian, though I am labeled by the US government as a minority. Its confusing I know, though I really don't feel disadvantaged or anything by it. If I've learned anything in my time on earth its that race relations are a very complicated issue and no one really understands it.
The reason for my defense of this is photo (this discussion has gotten far off track) is that I and many others take this inflamatory British yellow journalism as an attack on Spain as a whole, which I feel is misguided, highly hypocritical, and displays a lack of understanding and "ignorance" which is ironically what all Spaniards are being accused of here. If the British press wants to take this innocent gesture, misinterpret it, and use it as a means to spin Spain is a racist country than they can go right ahead and look as silly as the players do here, however I suggest they put their energy into something a little more substantial.
In any case this is a dead issue, the players have apologized for doing any harm while stating they meant no harm (they aren't lying) and the Chinese haven't expressed any mass outrage from what I have read. Spain and China have had good relations and I assume this will continue for years to come.
Well, there you go...You're white...People who seem to be least offended or lack the understanding of these things are, of course, those who haven't been exposed to much direct prejudice themselves...Walk in someone else's shoes for a spell, see how the shoe fits
QUOTE(Andres. @ Aug 19 2008, 01:34 PM)
Well yes I am caucasian, though I am labeled by the US government as a minority. Its confusing I know, though I really don't feel disadvantaged or anything by it. If I've learned anything in my time on earth its that race relations are a very complicated issue and no one really understands it.
The reason for my defense of this is photo (this discussion has gotten far off track) is that I and many others take this inflamatory British yellow journalism as an attack on Spain as a whole, which I feel is misguided, highly hypocritical, and displays a lack of understanding and "ignorance" which is ironically what all Spaniards are being accused of here. If the British press wants to take this innocent gesture, misinterpret it, and use it as a means to spin Spain is a racist country than they can go right ahead and look as silly as the players do here, however I suggest they put their energy into something a little more substantial.
In any case this is a dead issue, the players have apologized for doing any harm while stating they meant no harm (they aren't lying) and the Chinese haven't expressed any mass outrage from what I have read. Spain and China have had good relations and I assume this will continue for years to come.
Well, there you go...You're white...People who seem to be least offended or lack the understanding of these things are, of course, those who haven't been exposed to much direct prejudice themselves...Walk in someone else's shoes for a spell, see how the shoe fits
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.