Is it time for Holland to abandon their beloved 4-3-3 formation. For the past two major competitions they simply haven't scored enough goals. I think they need two centre forwards, one as the link up player (a la Bergkamp) this can be Van Persie and one out and out goalscorer (Van Nistelrooy, Kuyt, Hesselink etc) and playing Robben as a left midfielder not as a wing forward. The midfield did not give the three attackers much support at all.

I think the system is fine as long as they find a true right footed player/attacking winger to play instead of van persie who's left footed obv. Van der Vaart also needed to do better for the formation to be successful, I think the failing was more due to the team rather than formation.

I think it should be given some thought. The 4-3-3 system is a beautiful system and expresses very well how the dutch think about football. We think that you should attack whenever possible and play beatiful, attractive football.... However, we have never won a mayor tournament with this formation and we should try to play 4-4-2 once for example, with people like Ruud and Huntelaar up front. And later also Babel when he has riped a little. Or play huntelaar a little behind Ruud or something... We should be able to figure something out.

But in Holland it is like a law, dutch football has to be played in a 4-3-3 formation. You can also see this because both Ajax and PSV play in a 4-3-3 formation. I think you will need a lot of good facts to convince the dutch people to start changing a formation which they have played their whole lives....

I see no reason why the 4-3-3 can't be successful. Barca were devastating this year with the 4-3-3, and the Spanish NT has done pretty well so far.

Barca's 4-3-3 was slightly different to this Dutch Side's. The difference was in the midfield where the Dutch played with a #10 type player, with two DM's while Barca play with 1 DM and 2 CM's.

Another problem that the dutch seemed to have was the fitness of their key players, especially Van der Vaart and Sneijder. Also, Cocu and Van Bommel clearly aren't the players they once were, that was a big part of the problem IMO. HAd everyone been fit, I think they would be better off with Landzaat in the middle.

-----------VDV---------Sneijder-------
-----------------Landzaat-------

Something like that.

I was going to say something like that. For Euro 2008 Holland should change it around. cocu and MVB don't cut it in midifeld. They need to play something like this:

----------------????????-----------------
--Robben-----------------Van Persie--

-----------VDV---------Sneijder-------
-----------------Maduro-----------------

Maduro is a class prospect and should be tried at the DM spot. VDV and Sneijder can add good quality attack through the middle, something Holland lacked this year, but can also help the defence. Robben and van Persie kick ass. They did a great job terrorizing defences on the wing. But they needed more attack through the middle. That is why I thought Kuyt would be better than RVN, because he provided more than just finishing. But he couldn't finish. RVN is only getting older. They need to find a young replacement. Someone like Babel maybe?

The thing I don't understand about the Dutch's willingness to play the 4-3-3 is, they don't have the strongest of defences, and their first team holding midfield player was Cocu, who is 36 years old? Maduro is a decent prospect for you guys after the World Cup, but I don't see him moving away from Ajax anytime soon.

Anyway, isn't it a lot of responsibility on one holding midfielder in a 4-3-3 formation when the other two midfielders in the squad are Sneijder & VDV, two very attacking minded players? It's strange that it works quite well I would have thought Holland would have been ripped apart.

If Sneijder still played on the right, I would have had... Robben - VDV - Maduro - Sneijder

Well, that's just bringing the two wingers further back tbh, meh I'm not the greatest tactician.

Huntelaar or Babel should be able to fill in that postition. I agree with you that Maduro should fill in the place of Cocu on the midfield, with a due respect, but a 36 year old midfielder like Cocu should be replaced sometime...

Well, Sneijder and VDV aren't much more offensive than the Xavi-Deco pairing at Barca.

But Xavi is quite handy at winning the ball, he tracks it quite well and puts in a few good challenges, also Edmilson will usually play behind them and do a good job, Gio is quite good at coming into central positions from the left.

I think that that is one of the things this dutch side lacks, somebody who wins us the ball a lot. From what i have understood V.Bommel and Cocu should have been doing this and even though V.Bommel is very strong physically he hasnt being doing it all to much. I think maduro would though, we should try playing him more often. This will probably happen as Cocu is retired from the dutch national team now.

Van Bommel has been a disappointment at Barcelona, I would have expected him to shine in Spain maybe he'll do better when he plays more games consistently he didn't get much of a chance. He was over-hyped while in Holland, he's more attacking minded than Maduro so that's another reason I'd pick Maduro over him They could work well together, would be nice to drop the pressure off Maduro and let the wingers run freely.

--------------RVN--------------

Robben ------------------- RVP

---- V.Bommel - Sneijder ----

------------ Maduro ------------

That could work but i think that RVN should be replaced by Huntelaar soon and i wasnt really impressed by Sneijder this World Cup, i think V.d.Vaart would have been better if he wouldnt have had to recover from that injury. But you are right, our defence needs more support...

On Euro 2008 players such as RVN will mosty likely won't even be selected anymore. Huntelaar is a much better player for the system of 4-3-3 than RVN in these years since RVN just doesn't have the speed and attention anymore to score alot in 4-3-3.

On-topic: I don't think we should drop the 4-3-3 system. It has always been a great weapon to use wingers which can deliver the ball to a striker who only has to tap it in. Also I don't believe we should just throw away our own system and start playing another. Generations of players have been growing up using this system and almost every player who ever played in holland has mastered the 4-3-3 here.

They would is another formation can try

Getting rid of the system is not nessisary. But you do have to use players that fit in to the system.. Kuyt absolutely does not. He is not a striker in a 4-3-3. This guy works like a horse (altough Ruuds look more like one, I know), he walks through the entire field. That is not what the striker should be doing in a 4-3-3. Maybe Ruud isn't the most gifted player.. But he knows what he has to do, knows where to put positions and knows how to score. Just like Huntelaar.

I never hope to see Kuyt see as the central striker again.

At feyenoord they play 4'4'2. Something that suits Kuijt much better. But huntelaar should already start replacing ruud in september when the qualification starts for Euro 2008. He may not be the finisher that ruud is when you are one on one with the goalkeeper, but he does know how to score from everywhere, not just 5 meters from the goal.

Van Persies Holland best player just behind Robben. I dont see him getting dropped he has got his place to keep till Euro 2008.

----------Robben--------------Huntelaar-----------Van Persie



-----------------------VDV----------------Sneidjer


------------------------------------Maduro??-----------




Obvious line up but question marks on Maduro. He is slow and sloppy sometimes also Holland like to play with a more creative holding player. With Holland producing fantastic youngsters all the time this could all change.

We have great prospects for the future. With the likes of Huntelaar, Babel, Maduro, Heitinga, and the U-21 team and even the likes of Robben and Robin we look great for the future

to be honest are there any real amazing prospects in the dutch u-21 team, and plus im not sure if the likes of Babel and Heitinga will ever be world class

only huntelaar really, that's it. vbasten can keep dreaming if he thinks the likes of schaars, hofs and emanuelson are gonna bring him the euro cup in 2008.
anyway, i'd like to see it before i believe it with huntelaar. he's scored 40, give or take, of those 50 goals he scored last season, in the mickey mouse league that the eredivisie is. people who talk that huntelaar would've saved holland's asses against portugal and things like that are just complete and utter morons.

but do they need to abandon the 4-3-3 system? no, coz vpersie and robben are real wingers, so is castelen, and huntelaar is a good, not ideal, striker for 4-3-3. it's just that kuyt should never be called up again. this one dimensional amateur does not but bring out the ugly side of this formation.

I simply dont agree with you. Huntelaar scored half his goal with Heerenveen, without really any support up front againest teams like Ajax, Feyenoord, PSV and AZ. At Ajax he really has to do it alone aswell, unless you find somebody like Rosenberg or Charisteas a great partner up front. Imagine what he can do if he actually gets some players around him with a lot of class and sophistication.

a non-heerenveen or non-ajax fan wouldn't be yapping this mountain of nonsense. rosenberg was in good, somtimes excellent form last season on the left, while at heerenveen the likes of yildirim, bosvelt and nilsson gave him the right balls all day.
you must also remember that huntelaar's tally was also helped somewhat with 7-8 goals against the likes of rbc and sparta.
it's bullshit to say that huntelaar is now good enough to take on some of the best defences in the world.
huntelaar should start as reserve to van nistelrooij to begin with in the qualification for euro 08. later on we'll see what happens.

Well there once was a time where 3 - 4 - 3 was played. and if you ask me thats more typical dutch football. but 4-3-3 is what is being played all times these days.

also with 4-3-3 people seem to have this idea that there can only be one main striker and 2 supporting strikers. if it were up to me i wouldnt have that. i would have 2 strikers and one player sitting in behind them. or even 2 players striking and one playey sitting back a little on one of the wings like van persie for example. i see a lot more atacking threat that way. It would also mean that you dont have to put all the pressure no RVN or kuyt or huntelaar to score.

Also for justifying your believe that 4-3-3 should be abandoned, you shouldnt say it is because of the formation that they havent won a major tournament except for europe. the reason they havent won a majour tournament is because they have an attitude problem, and always have.

in 98 and 2000 they didn't have an attitude problem that's for sure. they just choked. what the hell do u mean with "attitude problem" anyway?
wat moet ik daar onder verstaan??

They have no winning spirit, I always miss that with our side...
They never give that 110% like you see with Germany, they just keep fighting untill the signal.
Thats there attitude problem.

also, they didnt use 4-3-3 in euro or in 1998. i forgot to add that.

that's not an attitude. that's their mentality. the dutch have always had that mentality. and did win prize with it. euro 88.

you can't convince me that holland didn't win wc 06, euro 2000, and wc 98 coz the team lacked heart. i mean, the french team of 98 wasn't a very spirited team either. but thanks to the class of zidane, they won.
and you must also remember that germany, with their 110% fighting spirit, went out in the first of euro 2000 and 04.

this trait goes back to 1974. and is well known outside of holland.
to be a seccessful team you have to have arrogence, that holland has plenty of. the problem you see is because they think they have won it before they even have.

That's rediculous. Only in the 74' final that was true. No other tournament was lost because Holland though "they were there".

my fault i should have phrased it better. i believe that they believe they are better than they are without actually proving it.

that's more the case with england actually.

i would say both. because thats actually what english say about holland. so, yeah...

Yup.

Lol those were some good days in the Dutch forum with Juan Carlos Valeron.. We all hated him, but I must say sometimes I miss the heated discussions. He's banned

I was actually just wondering about that, I just checked his profile.
He had a shitload of warns, but I still kind of miss him. When'd he get banned and for what?

I don't know what he finaly got banned for, but he had a big list of warnings obviously..

LOL just look at the only comment he received on his profile

Yah I saw that lol.
Thing is, it was quite recently... so I don't get why that person posted that on his profile.

Maybe Mucho discovered some of his post in an old topic and hated him straight away? I can see that being possible.

Look at his posts in the profile, especially the ones in the Hotties thread. It's freaky.. I remember JC-14 or Oranje86 wanted to know where he lived because he never wanted to tell us where he was from or who he was supporting (besides Valeron), because he only posted at a time which was deep into midnight in Holland. He said he had some kind of sleeping disease and that's why he was always posting at those times.. He was full of hate but it was fun to have a discussion with him at times.

I wish I had joined SP a little bit earlier... It must have been funny

It was mainly annoying. Only thing the guy did was say how crap everything and everyone was.

Yah... he definitely knew how to smack down people's opinions.
I was relatively new to the forum when he was still around... but I remember he got warnings quiet often!
At times he was fun though... kept the forum lively.